Jump to content

Talk:1st Karmapa, Düsum Khyenpa

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Head of Kagyu?

[edit]

Can someone knowledgeable clarify the relationship between the Karmapas, the Karma Kagyu lineage, and the Kagyu school as a whole? The Karmapas are sometimes described as the head of the Kagyu school, but I sometimes get the impression that, while they are the most recognizable Kagyu lamas, they are really only the boss of their own Karma Kagyu subset. - Nat Krause 16:05, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Necessity for carefully footnoting added material

[edit]

This article has apparently so far been taken with permission from Ken Holmes' book Karmapa which is on a web site. It is most important, therefore, that any added material or changes are carefully referenced so that there can be no mistaking what came from Ken Holmes' book and what is new material. I will do this with some additions I will make - but just thought I should make this request now in case others wish to make changes or additions. Cheers, John Hill 07:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Austerlitz -- 88.75.94.28 (talk) 12:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Düsum Khyenpa, 1st Karmapa Lama. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:48, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Düsum Khyenpa, 1st Karmapa Lama. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 November 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. uncontested request with minimal participation (non-admin closure) Feeglgeef (talk) 00:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, this is on behalf of another user, I do not necessarily agree with the proposed titles. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 02:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC) This move request was unilaterally submitted on behalf of @Metokpema without coordination, after Metokpema submitted this issue to the Edit Warring Administrators. Metokpema is now completing this group move request properly by adding justification and source links in support of the moves. These moves follow two very simple points: The Karmapa's title is 'Karmapa', and can be 'Gyalwang Karmapa', but is not 'Karmapa Lama' and has never been Karmapa Lama:[reply]

  • This elementary point is confirmed by the Karmapa himself at kagyuoffice.org, where their list of the 17 Karmapas do not have 'Lama' in their name. Their tulku title has never been 'Karmapa Lama', and why or when it was mistakenly used as their title on Wikipedia is not clear since no one has provided any evidentiary support for these incorrect titles.
  • Three other respected academic sites that have presences on the internet all support this point. They are treasuryoflives.org , whose biographical articles are peer reviewed; and lotsawahouse.org , whose team of translators are highly respected and their open access to buddhist texts is commendable; and bdrc.org, the Buddhist Digital Resource Center, whose library of texts authored by the Karmapas list them exclusively as karma pa (in the Wylie translation of Tibetan).
  • To assume wrongly that every tulku lineage has Lama in their title is rather shocking, especially in an encyclopedic setting.

The next very simple point is that the Tulku title naming convention for Tibetan Buddhists is tulku number, then spiritual title, then given name, as in the 8th Karmapa, Mikyo Dorje'.

  • Again, this Tulku naming convention is used by the above listed highly reliable sources, and by innumerable published academic journals and their qualified authors. Minor differences could include writing or spelling the tulku number (as in '8th Karmapa' or 'Eighth Karmapa') and these moves propose keeping the number system as in '8th Karmapa'.
  • Additionally, the Tibetan language version uses karma pa 08 where the number follows the tulku title, whereas the English translations prefer the number preceding the tulku title. These moves propose to keep the English version of number placement.

All of these links, and more links, and more examples and more points can be found at Talk:Theckchok Dorje, 14th Karmapa Lama, which is where this request for moves should have been posted.Metokpema (talk) 10:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I'm of the opinion that, if the title is incorrect and should be "Karmapa", we should treat it like we do a lot of other titles. What I mean by this is keeping 1st Karmapa, 2nd Karmapa, etc., at the end of the article title. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is an encyclopaedia. Frankly, your personal opinions do not matter since reliable academic sources prevail. Metokpema (talk) 10:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me be clear, I couldn't care less about your inaccurate edit warring report because, we I've described three times, it very clearly was not edit warring, but there's no need to rehash that. Submit it again if you like, I told you I'd start the move, and your edit warring report will be closed as not edit warring, plain and simple, because I reverted your moves once, and that was that. There was no back and forth, hence, no edit warring. Your personal attacks and repeated assumptions of bad faith are ridiculous.
Grow up. Don't post on my talk page again, and do not ping me again. Our interactions from here on out are over, unless you feel like submitting another frivolous report which will be closed without action (except maybe a WP:BOOMERANG based on your behaviour).
As mentioned, an uninvolved third party will close the discussion after 7 days. Let the process run its course, this is standard practice when a move has been contested. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No feedback so far.... but I do still prefer, and believe, the number for the person should come after the comma, regardless of what title we end up using. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:02, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, the reliable sources support my page title corrections, which you deleted more than three weeks ago.
  • Again, you have not provided any sources at all, much less reliable sources, to support what you describe as 'your opinion' to the names and naming conventions of the tulku lineage of the Karmapas. Why not?
  • Maybe a comparison to the naming of car models would be easier for you and others to understand: The Mercedes-Benz 300 SL is the recognised name for a "famous and highly respected car" (please note this is NOT an article). The name is not "300 SL Mercedes-Benz Vehicle". Likewise, the Jaguar XK-E , considered the most beautiful car ever made, is not named the "E KX Jaguar Vehicle". Simple, yes?
  • Opinion as a personal preference to change these names remains a personal opinion, but should not, per WP:Name, be forced on WP pages by using page move deletions and page move blocks, a doubly negative move due in WP:NO-PREEMPT.
  • In other words, "300 SL Mercedes-Benz Vehicle" is not the correct name, as copious amounts of sources prove. Personal opinion does not matter.
  • These simple car model name examples further explain why the opinion of "Düsum Khyenpa, 1st Karmapa Lama" is not the correct name for the 1st Karmapa, Düsum Khyenpa. This is what all of the reliable sources prove.
  • Please note that my exhaustive explanations of this most basic point are also not a form of edit warring, but exhaustive attempts to make the logical issue (inexperienced and unsourced opinions vs multiple reliable and scholarly sources) apparent, in order to build consensus per Wikipedia standards.
  • Why are these exhaustive efforts to correct obvious errors in an encyclopaedia still necessary, after more than 3 weeks? Metokpema (talk) 07:36, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 02:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, thank you.
Additionally, WP:BLP concerns are also involved with ensuring the naming conventions are corrected.
In that the Karmapa tulku lineage is a lineage of reincarnated spiritual leaders, we can say that the current Karmapa is also the 16th Karmapa and the 15th Karmapa, and on, since it's an incarnation (tulku) lineage that has continued from the 1st Karmapa. Thus, their names need to follow their own naming conventions in English (tulku number, title, given name) which are those that scholars also use, per the provided sources.
I'll bring it to the BLP notice board's attention. (Metokpema) 116.66.195.213 (talk) 10:24, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

How dare you

[edit]

How dare you Hey man im josh ignore WP conventions and refuse to discuss your unsourced personal opinions which qualifies as edit warring; how dare you then unilaterally submit the move 'on my behalf' after edit warring; how dare you try to tank the move by failing to co-ordinate with me, failing to submit it properly , and not submitting it at Talk:Theckchok Dorje, 14th Karmapa Lama. Metokpema (talk) 10:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus Christ... you're impossible. Your personal attacks and condescension are beyond the pale. I've worked hard to talk to you, but do not ping me again. I am done discussing this further with you. The move discussion has been started, an impartial third party will close the discussion after 7 days. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:1st_Karmapa,_Düsum_Khyenpa&oldid=1262901127"