Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources

Do reliable sources have to be informed of their use in a Wikipedia article?

Do reliable sources have to be informed of their use in a Wikipedia article? Howie Marx (talk) 07:01, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Why would/should they be? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 07:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn`t know if we needed their permission or not to include them as a reliable source in an article ....I can`t think of any reason why they would object to this ... surely it`s good for them too? (as long as it`s factual)

Do you think they should be informed Headbomb? Howie Marx (talk) 07:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

No they don't need to be informed, and their objections wouldn't matter if they had any. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

ok thx Howie Marx (talk) 03:20, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Reliability and Time

How much does time factor into the reliability of sources and the accuracy of information? For example, say an article has multiple sources - enough to pass WP:N and WP:V. However, although the sources are regarded as reliable - as in Generally or Marginally - the info from them may be outdated. Perhaps the article was of an older topic that was notable but wasn't created until after a long time has passed. Yet, the only evidence that proves such info is out of date comes from primary and/or potentially unreliable sources. Since the site requires that articles are based on secondary sources, what would an editor do in this situation? Is it better to leave the article intact until a new reliable secondary source is found? Or should the article be updated with current information, even if that info is from dubious sourcing (or even none at all)? I was under the impression that WP:VNT and WP:NTEMP applies, but is it concerning to leave it even if no other sources ever emerge? Thanks, PantheonRadiance (talk) 22:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

To me, the distinction between primary and secondary sources is prescient: a source becomes primary when the context in which it was written has been sufficiently diverged from by "our own", that it no longer suffices to transparently verify claims and communicate information to the reader. That is, if the reader attempted to make deductions while intuitively applying the understanding of the world presently around them onto the text, they would get crucial facts wrong. A primary source requires an additional layer of interpretation and expertise between it and transparent, verifiable claims we can cite. Remsense ‥ 论 22:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

To directly answer your question: I guess we'll have to find out when it happens? It seems like it would depend entirely on what the article is specifically about. Remsense ‥ 论 22:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply! I think I get your point, but just to clarify: unless the info is inherently obvious, most of the time the info from primary sources needs analysis and expertise before we can use it on Wikipedia? And such analysis can generally only be done through a reliable secondary source? That's my line of thinking too. I believe that when it comes to the ease of spreading misinformation online, secondary reliable sources should definitely be used to combat that. PantheonRadiance (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Also for a specific example, my impetus to discuss this was based on Smosh Games. The article became a redirect ten years ago due to a lack of notability. Recently I uncovered multiple sources found since then that proved notability per WP:WEB. However, there was recent contention regarding the info in the article, namely whether much of it was inaccurate because it was outdated - due to the ten years since the AfD. While I believed in sustained notability, another editor claimed its inaccuracy, and continuously added info attempting to update it, without verifying that the info came from secondary sources. I objected to that due to failing WP:V and WP:OR among other MOS guidelines. Needless to say it's a messy debate. PantheonRadiance (talk) 23:20, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@PantheonRadiance, inaccuracy gets solved with the [Edit] button, not the delete button. If an old source says "500 members" or "revenue of $2 million", and that's alleged to be inaccurate due to being out of date, then copyedit it to say "500 members in 1965" or "revenue of $2 million in the 2015–2016 fiscal year". WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for your advice. I did keep in mind MOS:REALTIME and MOS:DATED when I rewrote the page, trying to say "In year X, they did Y" as much as I could. But I guess it still wasn't enough anyways. PantheonRadiance (talk) 07:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Dubious

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Please discuss at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

---

What should be done to overhaul the {{dubious}} template? Literally every time I've seen it on an article, there is zero discussion on the talk page about what may be dubious in the article. I discussed this on the talk page a while back, but the discussion just went around in circles and fizzled out. Should a drive be done to remove drive-by instances of this tag where no discernible discussion exists? Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 19:41, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Also asked at WP:VPM and at WT:V… Please don’t ask the same question at three venues. Consolidate the discussions. Blueboar (talk) 20:40, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bold edit on WP:AGEMATTERS

In the passage With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) are can be less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing. I have changed the underlined portion.

The main reason for this is ancient primary sources (Plutarch, Livy, Sallust, Cicero, Polybius, Thucydides, etc). They are in fact older and closer to historical events. They are not also necessarily more reliable. The transmission chains for these sources are complicated both in terms of how they were written (see eg Quellenforschung) and how they were copied to the present (eg emendation). For counterexample, it is now relatively common to question descriptions given in, say, Livy on the basis of alternate versions in Dio, even though Dio is later than Livy; similar issues pop up in emendation, where the "earliest" version of a manuscript is not necessarily the one which is accepted. A E Housman in a rather old review, and very fun to read in a base way, a few times aimed his (extremely sharp) skills of invective at that exact assumption.

I noticed this while doing some edits to an essay of mine (User:Ifly6/Primary sources in classics) which also explains why ancient primary sources are problematic. Anyway, I thought the statement rather broad and weakened it. Ifly6 (talk) 17:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ifly6, what do you think about deleting the whole paragraph?

[Text: "With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) can be less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing. However, newer secondary and tertiary sources may have done a better job of collecting more reports from primary sources and resolving conflicts, applying modern knowledge to correctly explain things that older sources could not have, or remaining free of bias that might affect sources written while any conflicts described were still active or strongly felt."]

Even if I think it's 100% true, I'm not sure that tells editors anything actionable. It's kind of a long-winded way of saying "Better sources are better". WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't have any objection to deleting the paragraph. Ifly6 (talk) 23:54, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Newspapers

I was recently reading the Wikiedu subject-specific guide on reliable sourcing, in preparation for training students in a history class on how to complete their Wikipedia assignment. The subject-specific guideline says to avoid using "most newspaper articles from the period you're writing about" (page 2) as sources, because they are considered a primary source. I was surprised to read that, but on reflection, it makes sense. I was wondering if that would merit mentioning on this page. How old does a newspaper article have to be to count as a primary source rather than a secondary source? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

See #Bold edit on WP:AGEMATTERS (above). —Bagumba (talk) 20:41, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@Rachel Helps (BYU), you might find WP:PRIMARYNEWS useful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Assessment of "primary" and "secondary" is contextual. For intro undergrad students, it's probably best to just say that newspapers are entirely primary, or if not now, they will be within a few months. The more nuanced approach is that there are different types of newspaper articles, and different types of content in a newspaper article, and the context in which one uses such content also determines its suitability for whatever parameters of sourcing you have.

I'll use examples from the freely accessible BBC today: in "Telegram CEO Durov says his arrest 'misguided'", the line "the BBC learned last week that Telegram has refused to join international programmes ..." would be primary source material, as it is the BBC's original reporting from that series of articles. The quotations in the article are taken from Durov's Telegram post, which considering that the BBC and others would verify that account and statement, makes this a secondary source for that statement around this time of publication. However, after some months, it may no longer as important that Durov said something at this specific day, but rather what he said, in which case a line that cites this article for that information would use it as a primary source. Finally, the factual statements about Telegram and Durov's bio at the end will probably be considered citable as a secondary source for many years (although since the source of that information is not given, it is the worst kind of secondary source). And hopefully I've conveyed that the context in which it is cited matters. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanations! Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:05, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with the analysis by @SamuelRiv. The bit about "it was copied, which makes this a secondary source" is WP:LINKSINACHAIN. What makes (some or all of) a source be secondary is the addition of original thinking to prior publications. If the BBC not only repeated the original quotation but added, e.g., something about the implications of this quotation, the analysis of what the quotation reveals about how the arrest is affecting him, how the BBC believes this compares to a similar case, etc., then it would be a secondary source. Merely repeating what someone else said is still primary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, independent thought is necessary, but independent content is not necessary to define a secondary source. (And again, one shouldn't try to find some rigid definitions outside of the usage context.) Before a reputable newspaper reprints, in an article, what is claimed to be an statement from someone else, it verifies the statement. That makes it a secondary source for that statement. If they republished it indiscriminately, or at face value without any other reporting on the topic, then it would not be secondary. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:54, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I have read that newspapers no longer attempt to verify most statements. Fact checking is expensive. In particular, if the story says "The Daily Newspaper has reported that...", then I think we can assume that the original is being taken at face value. This is not bad; professional journalism is a small world, and its members are better suited for identifying who's trustworthy and who's not than Wikipedia editors are.

But all of this is a tangent: Fact checking produces a reliable source, not a secondary one. This would be a secondary source:

"News reports are conflicting. The Daily Newspaper quotes the mayor as saying 'Aliens are invading!', and The Weekly Standard quotes the police chief as saying 'It's all a big hoax'."

This example is secondary because they are comparing different reports. That would be secondary even if it were on a self-published blog, written by a non-expert, with no reputation for fact-checking or any of the other qualities we value. You couldn't use such a source because it would be totally unreliable, but Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean good, and it would be secondary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:47, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't use the term 'fact-checking' (as in the editorial procedure for each story). I say verifying as in independently verifying the reporting of a news outlet before re-reporting their content. That may mean some combination of fact-checking, interviewing the original journalist and editor, cross-checking with one's own sources, or some other process. The point is that we believe that a major news outlet generally does this (and they may outline their procedures publicly). SamuelRiv (talk) 12:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

What makes you think this actually happens? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

It is the definition of an WP:RS; if you believe an individual source is failing to do that, you should raise an objection on talk or take it to WP:RSN if the problem is systematic. If you believe all sources are failing to do that then there's nothing to be done; Wikipedia, by its nature, assumes that RSes exist. (Keep in mind that of course even the best RS will sometimes have some failures - that's very different from asserting that they have no fact-checking process at all!) --Aquillion (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

There's also the theory of accountability. Even if an outlet does not actively check every fact on every article, or even the majority of facts, if its reputation and financial stability hinge on its resistance to the scandal of major inaccuracy (if indeed major inaccuracy would be scandalous to that outlet, which is pretty much a requirement for RS here), then one can have some degree of confidence in the passive processes that would also serve rigor and accuracy in an institution.

Because resources are finite in every institution (even in some golden age of X), one always has to in practice give some faith to passive forces. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

"Appropriate"

"Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content."

What is intended by distinguishing appropriateness from being reliable for a statement being made? Is it referring to WP:UNDUE, or is it elaborating evaluating whether a source is reliable for a statement being made?

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This statement is about whether the source is appropriate for the content (e.g., reliable), not about whether the content is appropriate for the Wikipedia article (e.g., UNDUE). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:44, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

We've never really needed a definition of Wikipedia:Appropriate. Until last year or so, I don't remember anyone even asking about it. I recently expanded Wikipedia:Identifying and using primary sources#"Secondary" does not mean "good" to provide a bit of an explanation.

I think it's easier to understand that some sources are obviously inappropriate than to define appropriate directly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If it is referring to being reliable for the statement, how is it not a tautology? I'm just not sure what it's adding. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

"E.g." means "For example". It does not mean "A complete list of all factors". An unreliable source would obviously be inappropriate, so I give it as an example of one way in which a source could be inappropriate. If you would like others, then see the examples in WP:NOTGOODSOURCE that I linked above. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:13, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand, this is just not communicated in the quoted text at the top. If a source being reliable for a statement was entailed in "appropriate" as you give in your e.g. example, then it would be sufficient to just say the source is appropriate and omit the first half of the sentence. I think rewording the last part "and is [otherwise] an appropriate source for that content" would clear this up, especially with the link to WP:NOTGOODSOURCE embedded. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• I think that "appropriate", in this context, is a catchall for the sorts of things detailed in the reliability in specific contexts section and our more specific contextual content policies like WP:BLP, WP:EXCEPTIONAL, WP:MEDRS, WP:FRINGE and so on. The one thing that isn't spelled out, which perhaps should be, is that sources with relevant expertise are generally preferred over ones that lack it, but that isn't necessarily a requirement outside of WP:MEDRS, and other factors can complicate things - a news article written by someone with no expertise can still summarize the opinions of experts in ways that we can cover in the article voice, after all; whereas an academic paper may represent a single study whose results are outside of the mainstream. --Aquillion (talk) 15:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  An example differentiating “reliable” from “appropriate” … Suppose Joe TikTok writes in his social media: “Today was my 21st birthday, and I was enjoying it until a bunch of Anti-(cause) protestors stormed the restaurant and…” followed by a long rant on how he now hates Anti-(cause) protestors.

  That social media post can be considered ABOUTSELF reliable for verifying his birthday, but I would argue that the rest of the content makes it inappropriate to use for that purpose. Blueboar (talk) 17:52, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll be honest Blueboar, I've never encountered this before, it's very interesting to hear. To my eyes, it's not at all a natural reading from "appropriate". And I probably would have considered it appropriate. Even if it's not written verbatim in policy it's good to know.

Aquillion, I see WP:BLP, WP:EXCEPTIONAL etc as all entailed in the first half of the sentence. For instance, would you say a source failing BLP is still reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article? I can see how it could apply to generally preferring expertise, albeit not to MEDRS, per the same justification as my prior BLP example. I am lightly bludgeoning this and it's not gaining traction, so I might leave it there, thanks for weighing in. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Context

Roger 8 Roger, I think the start of WP:RSCONTEXT should be two paragraphs, like this:

The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content.

Meaning of these sentences: The DSM-5 might be an excellent source in theory – scholarly reference work, heavily cited by other sources, etc. – but it is absolutely unreliable if you're trying to support a sentence that says "Oppenheimer (film) won the Academy Award for Best Picture". OTOH, for that same sentence, a self-published, non-independent social media post from the Academic Award's official social media channel is okay.

In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article (see also Wikipedia:Citing sources § Inline citations and Wikipedia:Inline citation).

Meaning of these sentences (or at least the first one): If you want to know what's usually a desirable characteristic in a source, then here are some qualities we value in general.

The usual rule for a paragraph is that you should have one main idea per paragraph, and this is clearly two different ideas. Ergo, it should be two different paragraphs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Lead doesn't say what reliable source means

Compare with WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:OR. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

What would you propose the lead to say? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps "Reliable sources have a reputation for factchecking and accuracy. They are published, often independently from their subject." It's also troubling that the "page in a nutshell" doesn't reference reliability. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I've had a think to try to sum up the spirit of the guideline: "A reliable source is a source (four meanings in WP:SOURCE) that is just as willing to turn its critical attention inwardly as outwardly." I also think there is an implication that by doing this, they will necessarily be recognized for it which is the foundation for "reputation". This definition has a bias towards the source as a publisher/creator as described in WP:SOURCE. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If you want to begin with a definition, then AFAICT the actual definition is:

• "A reliable source is a published document that experienced Wikipedia editors will accept for supporting a given bit of material in a Wikipedia article."

You have probably noticed the absence of words like reputation, fact-checking, accuracy, independence, etc. That's because those aren't actually required. We cite self-published, self-serving, inaccurate, unchecked, non-independent sources from known liars all the time. See also {{cite press release}} and {{cite tweet}}. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The first part makes some sense, although I would appreciate some clarification on the second part. If every source is reliable for something, the second sentence of this page "If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it" is redundant. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The second sentence is incomplete. It probably ought to say "If no Wikipedia:Independent reliable sources can be found..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I assumed the exclusion of independent was intentional. There does seem to be a distinction between sources reliable for verifying the content they express (wikivoice), and sources reliable for verifying that such a source expressed content (requiring attribution). I'll add in the "independent", although it does seem a bit like a non-sequitur. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

A second thought: I don't think using a narrowly "document" definition for source adequately accounts for the other meanings of source used (i.e. a publisher), and I'm not sure how you could do that. I imagine that's just a case of reliable source having multiple definitions depending on the way it's being used. This may be the source of conflict with the second sentence: a different meaning being invoked. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:24, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

In discussions, we use that word in multiple different ways, but when you are talking about what to cite, nobody says "Oh, sure, Einstein is a reliable source for physics". They want a specific published document matched to a specific bit of material in a specific article.

"Document" might feel too narrow, as the "document" in question could be a tweet or a video clip or an album cover, none of which look very document-like, but I think it gets the general jist, which is that RS (and especially WP:RSCONTEXT) is focused on "the work itself". WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am thinking more Breitbart, although you describe well what the underlying dispute is, describing a publisher as unreliable is making a presumption for specific cites. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Conference proceedings

We have had a number of discussions on the reliability of conference proceedings as sources. See:

• Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_1#Conference_proceedings
• Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_10#Conference_proceedings_RS?
• Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_73#Conference_papers
• Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_305#Things_published_in_conference_proceedings

The gist of the discussions is that it depends on the conference and the degree of peer review applied to the proceedings. I think we should say something to this effect here, perhaps under Scholarship. BD2412 T 19:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

If memory serves, it also depends on the field of study. Conference proceedings are unreliable in medicine, but I believe they are valued in other fields (computers?). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:04, 27 November 2024 (UTC)